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    QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

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    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 1:36 pm

    @Dip wrote:So we agree, Slater is a better player. So do the national selectors, since Slater has been picked at fullback 25 times, and Hayne zero times ( not counting the Fiji selectors in the 2008 World Cup when Hayne wasn't picked in the Australian squad).

    Plus remember those times he wasn't good enough to be selected at fullback, and when he did they got thrashed.

    The old "at his best" argument is what you use when you're wrong. At their best Owen Craigie and Ewan McGrady  were two of the best players of the 80s and 90s.

    Slater consistently plays at a higher standard, has had the benefit of playing with Smith and Cronk and Qld and therefore has got the chocolates when it comes to selections, no doubt about it, I can't argue with that and I'm not arguing with it, Slater is the best performed FB over more than a decade, and a big part of that is he has been afforded the opportunity to learn his craft in the best club and state spine.

    Haynes best is better he simply isn't mentally as complete as Billy, and is a victim of his own versatility and requirement to singlehandedly carry a team on his shoulder for a number of years. Something we have no idea how Billy might have gone at, which will forever be his one blemish. We know Hayne performs for Aus and NSW consistently, he had been NSW best from the wing twice and FB once, and has been Australias best when require Tom play there at centre.

    Honestly, I can't argue that Slater hasn't clearly had the better career, he has, I'm a big wrap in him, as much as I hate to admit I've come to really like and respect the guy. The funny thing about it is, I'm not sure I really like or respect Jarryd that much, it is so frustrating to see him not consistently be fantastic, cause I'm sure if he decided to be, he could be and I would have loved to see him be. Put Billy's brain and work ethic in Haynes body with Haynes skill, and I think we can all agree he'd be the best we've ever seen.

    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 2:43 pm

    @Dip wrote:

    Cronk didn't establish himself as halfback in rep teams until after Lockyer retired at the end of the 2011 season. By that time Slater had played 17 tests at fullback.

    Hayne is a fantastic player, for sure, and at his best, was probably with Inglis and SBW the player that had the highest ceiling. But better players play consistently good more often, which is why Slater is better. Hayne would still be one of the top 6-10 players of the last decade IMO. Slater would be 3-5. I think most people would agree with that.

    He had Cronk at club level, and, ahhhh, I'd suggest Lockyer/Thurston who he had at state and international level was actually a step up from Thurston/Cronk, but regardless, he has never had to play with muppets like Hayne, and good luck to him.

    Neither Inglis or SBW have the complete game Hayne has, in fact the three are all so completely different, and again, certainly they have both been surrounded by better players throughout there career.

    Again, I can't and am not arguing that Slater hasn't had a superior career. But Hayne in his only chance at a full series at FB dragged and average bunch of players to victory over a Qld side with Slater, Thurston and Smith as there's spine and the most successful left edge we have ever seen in Inglis and Boyd, plus he dragged an ordinary Eels side to a GF where only a cap cheating Storm side with Slater, Inglis, Cronk and Smith stopped him. I just can't see where in recent memory a single player has managed that. Have a look at the spines of the Grand Finalists over the last decade and tell me where one man had less quality in his spine. When Hayne IS surrounded by quality which is VERY rarely, Only when he plays for Australia, he has been fantastic. It's just such a shame he hasn't been surrounded by quality more often because we will never really know how good he could have been, just like we will never know if Slatercould have carried a club side to a GFor a state side to victory. It's really not a fair comparison for either player.

    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 2:52 pm

    @dasherhalo wrote:How come Slater is only "good" because of Lockyer, Smith, JT & Cronk when it comes to Hayne's comparisons?

    I'd like to see this from Hayne advocates one day.

    "Hayne crushed it in the centres when he played for Australia, which makes him a much more versatile, complete player than Slater. Of course, he was playing with Cronk and Smith and JT in those games, so it's probably just a reflection on how good those guys are. Anyone could have performed well with the quality of the spine he was playing with".


    For the most part I agree with you there Dasher. I've never said Slater is "only good" because of those guys, he has been an equal part of that group of players brilliance. Really, at Club level, only JT has had to carry a team like Hayne.

    I've always said Hayne is a victim of his versatility and has crushed it when surrounded by those guys and it is a reflection of their quality, that Hayne stood out in a World Cup surrounded by those guys. If Hayne wasn't there, and Cheyse Blair was instead, I'm sure Australia still would have won, but Blair would have dominated like Hayne did, that is said the difference. So your assertion that Haynes performance is a reflection of those other great players is absolutely true. What we also know is without those players, Hayne has carried a side, Which is the great unknown with the others, bar Thurston.


    Last edited by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 2:55 pm

    @Dip wrote:I remember the last 2 months of 2011 when Tony Williams was unstoppable. All hail the best back rower of the modern generation...

    See, that is just disingenuous. Silly really, you guys know that isn't what I'm saying.

    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 3:03 pm

    @ryno_ wrote:People saying that Hayne at his best is better then Slater are comparing Hayne's peak to Slater's everyday and forgetting that Billy scored one of the greatest origin tries of all time (albeit as a winger).

    Nah, Hayne in 2009 was as good a season as we've seen given who he was surrounded by. And that became what people expected from him every week, which is just unsustainable. Hayne in 2014 was considered average, and (though I know it isn't the be all and end all) he still managed to tie with Thurston for a Dally M. Hayne too scored one of the great Origin tries from the wing, and on debut.
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    No Worries
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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by No Worries on Thu May 18, 2017 4:41 pm

    @Ice wrote:

    Nah, Hayne in 2009 was as good a season as we've seen given who he was surrounded by. And that became what people expected from him every week, which is just unsustainable. Hayne in 2014 was considered average, and (though I know it isn't the be all and end all) he still managed to tie with Thurston for a Dally M. Hayne too scored one of the great Origin tries from the wing, and on debut.

    Prior to about round 20 he was Hayne who ?? For memory he got 3 points in every game for the last 6 rounds and single handedly carried the eels into the finals. In my book a season is 26 rounds not 6.

    Dip

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Dip on Thu May 18, 2017 5:17 pm

    @Ice wrote:

    He had Cronk at club level, and, ahhhh, I'd suggest Lockyer/Thurston who he had at state and international level was actually a step up from Thurston/Cronk, but regardless, he has never had to play with muppets like Hayne, and good luck to him.

    Neither Inglis or SBW have the complete game Hayne has, in fact the three are all so completely different, and again, certainly they have both been surrounded by better players throughout there career.

    Again, I can't and am not arguing that Slater hasn't had a superior career. But Hayne in his only chance at a full series at FB dragged and average bunch of players to victory over a Qld side with Slater, Thurston and Smith as there's spine and the most successful left edge we have ever seen in Inglis and Boyd, plus he dragged an ordinary Eels side to a GF where only a cap cheating Storm side with Slater, Inglis, Cronk and Smith stopped him. I just can't see where in recent memory a single player has managed that. Have a look at the spines of the Grand Finalists over the last decade and tell me where one man had less quality in his spine. When Hayne IS surrounded by quality which is VERY rarely,  Only when he plays for Australia, he has been fantastic. It's just such a shame he hasn't been surrounded by quality more often because we will never really know how good he could have been, just like we will never know if Slatercould have carried a club side to a GFor a state side to victory. It's really not a fair comparison for either player.

    I missed this in all the backwards and forwards. My comment about Cronk not being established was only in reply to a comment along the lines of "Slater got his test gig to keep the combination with Cronk and Smith".

    I like Hayne, I reckon he's great to watch. Unfortunately for him, in the last 7 or 8 years the only time he seems to win regularly is when he plays with Queenslanders (ie for Australia). Smile
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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Honeysett on Thu May 18, 2017 5:42 pm

    @ryno_ wrote:People saying that Hayne at his best is better then Slater are comparing Hayne's peak to Slater's everyday and forgetting that Billy scored one of the greatest origin tries of all time (albeit as a winger).

    And offside.
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    ryno_

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by ryno_ on Thu May 18, 2017 6:14 pm

    @Honeysett wrote:

    And offside.



    Neither of his feet are in front of the ball. Draw a vertical line from the front of the ball, it goes through Slaters knee - thats not even accounting for the altered perspective of the camera angle.

    Timed to perfection. Onside.
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    Honeysett
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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Honeysett on Thu May 18, 2017 6:18 pm

    Fishing
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    dasherhalo

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by dasherhalo on Thu May 18, 2017 7:50 pm

    I, Dasherhalo, hereby apologize for attempting to bait the defendant "Ice", whose moniker also reflects his demeanor (until you mention the McIntyre finals system).

    I will hereby swear to follow the co-defendant "Honeysett", in his example to reel in easier fish with more subtle barbs. Where is Pieman, anyway?

    Dip

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Dip on Thu May 18, 2017 8:44 pm

    @ryno_ wrote:



    Neither of his feet are in front of the ball. Draw a vertical line from the front of the ball, it goes through Slaters knee - thats not even accounting for the altered perspective of the camera angle.

    Timed to perfection. Onside.

    Nobody times their runs better than Slater, he's the best in the game at it. Except Hayne at his best.

    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 10:54 pm

    @No Worries wrote:

    Prior to about round 20 he was Hayne who ?? For memory he got 3 points in every game for the last 6 rounds and single handedly carried the eels into the finals. In my book a season is 26 rounds not 6.


    That's what some will have you believe. He scored points in the 6 early in the year, but don't let the truth or maths get in the way of the story that he only performed for a few weeks at the back end of the season. 6x3=18, did he win with 18 points did he?

    Of course though he didn't score heaps when the team was losing, but it wasn't cause he was playing bad, he was still our best week in week out, just the rest weren't playing as well, but when we started to win consistently he always got the three cause he was that far ahead. It's like the following season when the likes of Robson, Mortimer and Keating came down a notch and Hayne to to take on even MORE responsibilty, Hayne got the blame for our losses every week, but again, he was still our best when we won and was the reason we stayed in games we lost, but 1 guy can't and hasn't in recent memory been able to carry a team of nuffies for too long.

    That said, what's is wrong with dominating the back half of a season, you don't win the GF in March and your assertion suggests that you only have had a complete season either if you score in every game, or at least score in some early games in the season and some middle games and some late games to somehow prove you played great all 26 games. What a crock.

    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 10:55 pm

    @Dip wrote:

    I missed this in all the backwards and forwards. My comment about Cronk not being established was only in reply to a comment along the lines of "Slater got his test gig to keep the combination with Cronk and Smith".

    I like Hayne, I reckon he's great to watch. Unfortunately for him, in the last 7 or 8 years the only time he seems to win regularly is when he plays with Queenslanders (ie for Australia).  Smile

    Haha, fair enough, and very true. 2014 for NSW as FB aside.

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 10:57 pm

    @dasherhalo wrote:I, Dasherhalo, hereby apologize for attempting to bait the defendant "Ice", whose moniker also reflects his demeanor (until you mention the McIntyre finals system).

    I will hereby swear to follow the co-defendant "Honeysett", in his example to reel in easier fish with more subtle barbs. Where is Pieman, anyway?

    Nice one, I'm out of practise.

    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 10:58 pm

    @Dip wrote:

    Nobody times their runs better than Slater, he's the best in the game at it. Except Hayne at his best.

    Nah, I can concede Slater times his run better than even Hayne at his best.

    Ice

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Ice on Thu May 18, 2017 11:07 pm

    How's this for an interesting list
    Thurston, Johns Sterling, Miller, Potter, Lyons, Hayne, Cronk.

    5 halves, 2 Fullbacks and a Forward.
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    ryno_

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by ryno_ on Fri May 19, 2017 7:24 am

    @Honeysett wrote::fishing:

    Fair play. In my defence, I hadn't eaten all day and I was starving. IRL.
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    Pieman

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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Pieman on Fri May 19, 2017 7:58 am

    @dasherhalo wrote:I, Dasherhalo, hereby apologize for attempting to bait the defendant "Ice", whose moniker also reflects his demeanor (until you mention the McIntyre finals system).

    I will hereby swear to follow the co-defendant "Honeysett", in his example to reel in easier fish with more subtle barbs. Where is Pieman, anyway?

    Maybe Ice is pieman?
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    Re: QLD State of Origin 2017 Thread

    Post by Honeysett on Fri May 19, 2017 11:41 am

    @ryno_ wrote:

    Fair play. In my defence, I hadn't eaten all day and I was starving. IRL.

    It's an easy one admittedly, just like NSW with Jarryd Hayne not putting his foot on the line.

      Current date/time is Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:52 pm