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    2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

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    surmo13

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by surmo13 on Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:31 am

    @Ice wrote:

    Broncos admin got shut down on this. They'd been involved from the week after he was first injured. He returned later in the year to play and all medical info had been sent to the Broncos. For Bennet and co to attempt to make out they only just found out is laughable and clearly a lie and has been proven as such. They've simply made a call themselves late for Jack to have surgery and have attempted to pass the buck. Jack was passed by the Aus medicos to in the PMs game, he'd been absolved of any affiliation with the sharks and their responsibilities to him had been upheld to the highest standards.

    I don't understand the kerfuffle?

    you're just instantly believing every word Sharks management have supplied via their medical team, given their recent history?... interesting...

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Ice on Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:06 pm

    @surmo13 wrote:

    you're just instantly believing every word Sharks management have supplied via their medical team, given their recent history?... interesting...

    I could be wrong on this, so absolutely correct me if I'm wrong, but if what the sharks have come back and claimed was factually wrong, I imagine the Broncos would have been out there refuting it as vigously as the Sharks refuted certain claims made against them.

    The sharks have detailed and provided some clear facts, the Broncos have denied none of it. I believe (but stand to be corrected, cause I'm not 100%) that Bennett was the one that came out and blasted the Sharks. Maybe we can just put that down to some emotional ranting without being across all the facts. But as the public record stands (as far as I've seen) the Sharks have the high ground on this one and it's for the Broncos to confirm that they weren't given the information that the Sharks have shown they did give if in fact the Sharks response was just lies.  

    But I have to say, it's a brave organisation that comes out in response to a coaches hissy fit that may have just been media sound bites, and details their position on an issue that could be quite easily proven to be a fabrication. Onthe balance of probabilities and rationale, any objective observer would have to conclude the Sharks did all they could and all they thought proper and appropriate in the care of a player.

    And I am an objective observer, I hate both sides equally, in fact I'd almost say as long as Gallen is a true the Sharks, I hate them more.

    Ice

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Ice on Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:09 pm

    Oh, and the "via their medical team, given their recent history" I assume that is a peptides crack yes. Which is fair enough, assuming the same medicos are still at the Sharks. I'm pretty sure you'll find they aren't.
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    surmo13

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by surmo13 on Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:07 pm

    there's been a lot of criticisms of Wayne Bennett, but getting over-emotional and giving the media careless soundbites has not been one of them, what on earth would he serve to gain from throwing his medical team under the bus with an outright lie in November? Keeping in mind that the Sharks aren't just arguing that they kept the Broncos well-informed on Bird's injury, but they are adamant still that Bird didn't need surgery, which must be a lie, because if he didn't need surgery, he sure as shit wouldn't be having it, especially given that from all reports he was being earmarked for a forwards role that's probably scratched now, due to his inability to muscle up over the off-season. Here's the direct quotes from Bennett supplied to the courier mail:

    “We didn’t get any information from the Sharks (about Bird’s injury), we got it from Jack.

    “Jack knew he had a problem with his shoulder and it wasn’t going away. They assured Jack there wasn’t a problem.


    “He brought up some scans, the pictures were pretty hard to see. The scans were not of high quality, so we got him re-scanned and it clearly showed up that he needed surgery.

    “We all have a duty of care to our players, regardless of whether they are moving on. Their contracts don’t expire until October 31 and until that date, regardless of whether they are staying or going, you have a duty of care to them.”

    “We have lost a lot of time which is unsatisfactory,” Bennett said.

    “If this had all been diagnosed and sorted out correctly, Jack would have been right to start the season.

    “Opportunities have been missed. We’re now a long way behind with Jack’s rehabilitation.”

    i notice in the Sharks media release, they said that they 'discussed' the injury with the Broncos, not that they sat down and went through everything... discussing something could be as simple as:

    Broncos: Hey lads, whats the go with Birdy's shoulder?
    Sharks: oh believe us, we've taken all the necessary steps, done the x-rays, consulted with our doctors and with a bit of rehab, he'll be right as rain.
    B: that's great to hear, well as medical professionals we trust that your taking your duty of care seriously, so keep up the good work!

    But shit, that's the fun of speculating from the outside without any inside knowledge, maybe the Sharks are telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, maybe they ignored their duty of care to an outgoing player or maybe they are just outright incompetent... by the same token, Bennett might just be blowing off some steam, uncharacteristic as that may be, maybe the Broncos were as incompetent as the Sharks in identifying a problem before it was too late, or maybe they're incompetent enough to put themselves out of pocket for a surgery that wasn't required on a player who had a pretty important pre-season ahead of him... Hell, maybe Bird did some stupid shit in between the time he left the Sharks and joined the Broncos, fucked his shoulder up again and he's playing both sides for fools... we may never know.

    Ice

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Ice on Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:21 pm

    Fair enough, I look forward to the next article where the broncos refute the Sharks version of events.

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    No Worries
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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by No Worries on Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:11 am

    Without becoming the 3rd wheel and making this a love triangle. Yes clubs use the gift of the gab to say one thing but not actually say it. I think there are 2 points which stand out, one which has and one which hasn't been mentioned.

    1. "He brought up some scans, the pictures were pretty hard to see." Please explain ? Are the sharks using their own radiology machine that fell off the back of a truck ?

    2. Nobody gets signed without a medical first, did the injury occur before or after his Bronco's medical ? I thought I read he'd ben carryiing it for some time.
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    Pieman

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Pieman on Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:26 am

    @No Worries wrote:Without becoming the 3rd wheel and making this a love triangle. Yes clubs use the gift of the gab to say one thing but not actually say it. I think there are 2 points which stand out, one which has and one which hasn't been mentioned.

    1.  "He brought up some scans, the pictures were pretty hard to see." Please explain ? Are the sharks using their own radiology machine that fell off the back of a truck ?

    2. Nobody gets signed without a medical first, did the injury occur before or after his Bronco's medical ? I thought I read he'd ben carryiing it for some time.
    Is it as simple as a second opinion? 
    Sharks dr - happy with the quality of the scans and his opinion is that the injury didnt need surgery
    Bronco dr - not happy with the quality of the scan, they get new ones and his opinion is that the injury does

    Second opinions for surgery happen every day
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    Pieman

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Pieman on Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:40 am

    @surmo13 wrote:
    i notice in the Sharks media release, they said that they 'discussed' the injury with the Broncos, not that they sat down and went through everything... discussing something could be as simple as:

    Broncos: Hey lads, whats the go with Birdy's shoulder?
    Sharks: oh believe us, we've taken all the necessary steps, done the x-rays, consulted with our doctors and with a bit of rehab, he'll be right as rain.
    B: that's great to hear, well as medical professionals we trust that your taking your duty of care seriously, so keep up the good work!

    Also, lol. Imagine if someone tried to write some shit like this in their "discussion" on a research paper. I agree that it could be anything from a quick few words to going over his injury history, trends with players who have had that injury, treatments etc - and we will never know most likely, and in reality it is prob somewhere in the middle.

    Some fucking harsh accusations from Bennett tho. 

    I wonder if he was thinking about responsibility and duty of care to his wife when he was cheating on her? Or does he only care about his players.

    Dip

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Dip on Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:45 am

    Maybe Bird signed with the Broncos for a discounted rate as he knew he’d be getting league best medical support. Pretty important for a young guy with arthritis.
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    Pieman

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Pieman on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:05 pm

    If Jack Bird is worth more than a million a year I will shit my pants then eat them

    Dip

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Dip on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:20 pm

    My guess as to how things went down (with zero medical expertise):
    Cronulla Doctors - I might get better by itself without surgery. Certainly it won't get any worse if you don't do anything, though surgery will definitely fix it with a few months recovery time.
    Bird - If I go in for surgery, I can rule myself of any chance of World Cup selection and a test debut. I think I'm still a chance of selection so maybe I'll see how it goes and re-evaluate once the WC starts if I'm not selected.
    Meninga - you're a big chance of selection, that's why you're playing the PMXIII. Bennett loves ruling people out of rep games to protect them for club football - look at what he does with Milford and Samoa last year, and this year's WC.
    Bird - Didn't get selected in the WC, what do you guys at the Broncos think?
    Broncos Doctors - it might get better with rest. To be sure surgery is the best bet, though there's a 5 month recovery window.
    Bennett - Why didn't you have surgery when you were knocked out of the comp in early September so you'd be ready for 2018. Go and have surgery now. Bloody Cronulla. If we give him surgery now you'll miss a month or two at most. That's worth it for the Broncos.
    Bird - Whatever you say Unky Wayne.


    Last edited by Dip on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Dip

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Dip on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:28 pm

    I don't think Wayne is perfect in matters like this but one thing that he says that is dead right is that Cronulla have an obligation for player welfare right up until the end of his contract, even if that is after the last game he ever plays for them, particularly where the injury was caused while playing for them

    This is not saying they haven't looked after him appropriately, just a reply to the people who say it's the Broncos responsibility not Cronullas.

    If a tradie hurts himself at work, takes sick leave, finds another job that starts in a month's time then takes paid holidays from his current employer until he starts with the new job, then it is quite clearly the first employer's responsibility to ensure his recouperation (through Workcover or whatever). You can't just say "sure he hurt himself working for us, but he's changing jobs so that's their responsibility now".

    Oz Sport Mad

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Oz Sport Mad on Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:22 pm

    @Dip wrote:I don't think Wayne is perfect in matters like this but one thing that he says that is dead right is that Cronulla have an obligation for player welfare right up until the end of his contract, even if that is after the last game he ever plays for them, particularly where the injury was caused while playing for them

    This is not saying they haven't looked after him appropriately, just a reply to the people who say it's the Broncos responsibility not Cronullas.

    If a tradie hurts himself at work, takes sick leave, finds another job that starts in a month's time then takes paid holidays from his current employer until he starts with the new job, then it is quite clearly the first employer's responsibility to ensure his recouperation (through Workcover or whatever). You can't just say "sure he hurt himself working for us, but he's changing jobs so that's their responsibility now".

    Wayne is merely conservative in his player welfare opinions - whatever, he has every right to be (nor should any of his personal matters be a consideration Pieman you moronic simpleton).

    But in fairness to Cronulla, I don't think it is clear cut from the information that has been made public.

    Scans are what they are and the fact the Broncos said they wouldn't know the actual extent of the damage and therefore the likely recovery time until the surgery has been completed, says that there is a slight chance it is not be a blatant disregarding of their duty of care.

    Having said all that, it would be completely out of character for Bennett to gift the media a story without there being more to the story and Cronulla did have an incentive for deferring the surgery and they do have a history of medical negligence....

    So on the balance of probabilities I think it is fair to assume that Cronulla are deadset cunts.
    Case closed.

    Ice

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Ice on Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:53 pm

    @Oz Sport Mad wrote:

    Wayne is merely conservative in his player welfare opinions - whatever, he has every right to be (nor should any of his personal matters be a consideration Pieman you moronic simpleton).



    But in fairness to Cronulla, I don't think it is clear cut from the information that has been made public.

    Scans are what they are and the fact the Broncos said they wouldn't know the actual extent of the damage and therefore the likely recovery time until the surgery has been completed, says that there is a slight chance it is not be a blatant disregarding of their duty of care.

    Having said all that, it would be completely out of character for Bennett to gift the media a story without there being more to the story and Cronulla did have an incentive for deferring the surgery and they do have a history of medical negligence....

    So on the balance of probabilities I think it is fair to assume that Cronulla are deadset cunts.
    Case closed.

    Haha, nice summary. Some correct, some incorrect, but nice. Let's all move on, it seems the clubs have since Cronulla clarified the situation so we might as well.
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    Pieman

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Pieman on Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:19 pm

    @Dip wrote:I don't think Wayne is perfect in matters like this but one thing that he says that is dead right is that Cronulla have an obligation for player welfare right up until the end of his contract, even if that is after the last game he ever plays for them, particularly where the injury was caused while playing for them

    This is not saying they haven't looked after him appropriately, just a reply to the people who say it's the Broncos responsibility not Cronullas.

    If a tradie hurts himself at work, takes sick leave, finds another job that starts in a month's time then takes paid holidays from his current employer until he starts with the new job, then it is quite clearly the first employer's responsibility to ensure his recouperation (through Workcover or whatever). You can't just say "sure he hurt himself working for us, but he's changing jobs so that's their responsibility now".

    Yeah but welfare doesnt just come down to physical. If its in Jack's best interests to try and make the Aus squad for the WC, then Cronulla had every right to support him to do that. If that means not pushing for surgery and the Dr is happy with that, then thats fine from Cronulla's perspective because it is helping Jack further his career. Which is 100% a factor in player welfare.

    Whoever said it is right, Bennett is very conservative with having his players play rep and he would have advised Bird to get surgery right away if that was what the dr's suggested.

    They are just different points of view, neither is right or wrong.

    Also, with your injured worker situation, its a bit off.

    Generally, (depending on how big the company is) the workplace would refer the worker onto the insurer (e.g. work cover) who would contact a third party rehab provider in to do an assessment. So the third party would assess the worker and say "this is what he is capable of" and "these are the roles he is suited" to within that industry or workplace. The third party would then help with coordinating rehab and either - getting the worker back to the same job same workplace, different job same workplace, same job different workplace, different job different workplace. The employer has very little to do with it all, thats why they pay insurance fees. To go back to work, the worker needs clearance from a GP, which in this case - it appears Bird has clearance from the sharks dr, the aus dr and so on.

    Now, If the employee finds a new job on his own, then as soon as the worker is no longer the employee of the original workplace, the original workplace has nothing to do with the employee because it is his choice to leave. If he is taking paid holidays (or sick leave? or is getting a comp claim?) until the new job starts, then sure, the employee would be working with the third party rehab provider/insurer/rehab clinicians in order to rehab himself. It appears that the sharks have had him assessed, had dr's look at everything and he had been given the all clear. If its the worker's choice to quit and move to a new job that is suitable, the original employer most certainly cuts ties with the employee once they are off the books. If you get hurt at work you dont take a paid holiday - you are off work getting paid via the insurer on a compo claim until you are cleared by your dr. or until the workplace finds you suitable duties or you have a graded return to work.

    So all it comes down to is a difference of opinion from the dr's and Bennett's philosophy on surgery in the offseason for injured players.

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Oz Sport Mad on Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:15 pm

    Out of interest and following on from what No Worries mentioned earlier, when would the new club be able to conduct a thorough physical/medical examination?

    I sort of always assumed a new contract would be subject to a favourable medical examination and that they may not get the opportunity to conduct a thorough medical until they had left their previous club.
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    surmo13

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by surmo13 on Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:36 pm

    @Oz Sport Mad wrote:Out of interest and following on from what No Worries mentioned earlier, when would the new club be able to conduct a thorough physical/medical examination?

    I sort of always assumed a new contract would be subject to a favourable medical examination and that they may not get the opportunity to conduct a thorough medical until they had left their previous club.

    don't know for sure, but i assume it would be a part of the initial contract signing process, which in Birds case was well before the injury occurred.
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    Pieman

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Pieman on Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:03 pm

    From my understanding - the existing club passes on all injury history to the new club prior to/during contract negotiations. Whether the club owns the injury history or the dr or the player - Im not sure. If there is an ongoing injury that the new club is concerned about they can do further testing of their own before the contract is signed.

    The player is also given an exit physical assessment from the original club.
    The player is also given an entry physical assessment from the new club.
    The players also have end/start of season physical assessments (eg if the player needs a shoulder reco the club isnt going to allow him to fuck off to europe for 4 weeks instead of have the surgery)

    wizard333

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by wizard333 on Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:36 pm

    Broncos duty of care - Benny the hypocrite

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    Dip

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    Re: 2017 Brisbane Broncos Thread - we hate them for their freedom

    Post by Dip on Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:47 pm

    I would have thought that doing a shoulder charge that resulted in a death would be enough to ensure you wouldn't do it again. Apparently not.

      Current date/time is Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:51 pm